Discussion:
[STOCKPHOTO] Cafepress.com
(too old to reply)
David Riecks
2007-01-01 12:54:52 UTC
Permalink
Would an RF license allow a business to use the image on a postcard
or T-shirt and sell it in perpetuity?
Chuck:

There is no universal answer for this question. I've not looked into
the specifics of any of the "microstock" RF licenses, but IMHO, You'd
have to read the specific terms of agreement for the particular
companies RF license. That said, most of the earlier RF licenses
(PhotoDisc, etc.) which I did take the time to read, did specifically
prohibit the use of their RF licensed images on "items for resale"
such as CD's, Book Covers, notecards, etc. Some companies had a
higher fee that could be paid if you wished to license the image for
these types of uses, but again, this was not something that all had
universally.

David

----
David Riecks (that's "i" before "e", but the "e" is silent)
http://www.riecks.com , Chicago Midwest ASMP member
See the Universal Photographic Digital Imaging Guidelines at
http://www.updig.org
Chairman, SAA Imaging Technology Standards Committee
Creating an image database? visit (http://ControlledVocabulary.com/)
and join the discussion.
Stockphoto Seller
2007-01-02 01:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Just goes to the dementia of the RF mindset. Use of RF images in such things as books, magazines, educational CD's, etc., is use in an item for resale, isn't it? That's a rhetorical question of course, the answer being obvious to anyone but a neophyte with no knowledge of the business and total dolts.

Carl May/BPS

Jim Hunter <***@jimhunter.com> wrote:
I have looked at a number of these licenses from various vendors. The
interesting thing is that with most of these Licenses, the list of
Prohibited Uses is longer than the list of Permitted Uses. So far, all
of the RF licenses that I have looked at absolutely prohibit the use of
an image in any applications intended for resale, whether on-line or
not, including, without limitation, website templates, Flash templates,
business card templates, electronic greeting card templates, and
brochure design templates, postcards, mugs, t-shirts, posters, (printed
on paper, canvas or any other media) or other items for resale, license
or other distribution for profit. All of this is but a tiny fraction of
Prohibited Uses from one such license.


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Steve
2007-01-04 03:29:16 UTC
Permalink
Okay, I'm confused. If RF is not legal in items for resale, then
are
the only valid uses editorial and advertising? The water seems
muddy
here. Sometimes advertisements with photos are included with a
product. Is that a valid RF use? What about photos on product
packing? Is that considered advertising use or does that fall into
another category since that photo is now part of a product?

It sounds as if each licenser of RF images makes up their own rules
about what uses are valid. I used to think there was a clear
distinction between RF and RM with RF meaning "anything goes" and RM
meaning "licensed for a specific use". Bottom line, if there ever
was a standardized definition for these terms, it appears that it
has gone away.

Steve Waitkevich
Post by Stockphoto Seller
Just goes to the dementia of the RF mindset. Use of RF images in
such things as books, magazines, educational CD's, etc., is use in
an
item for resale, isn't it? That's a rhetorical question of course,
the
answer being obvious to anyone but a neophyte with no knowledge of
the
business and total dolts.
Post by Stockphoto Seller
Carl May/BPS
Sean Locke
2007-01-05 01:07:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Okay, I'm confused. If RF is not legal in items for resale, then
are
the only valid uses editorial and advertising?
Yes, at least at iStock. You aren't allowed to directly make money
from reselling the image, in the form of a calendar, tshirt, template,
etc, without buying an extended license.

Packaging, book covers, etc, don't count, as you are buying the
product for the product, not the image. That's pretty standard across
the micros, not including Shutterpoint.

Getty doesn't specify items for resale, but does mention as prohibited:
(iii) include the Licensed Material in an electronic template intended
to be Reproduced by third parties on electronic or printed products;
or (iv) use or display the Licensed Material on websites or in any
other medium designed to induce or involving the sale, license or
other distribution of "on demand" products, including, without
limitation, postcards, mugs, t-shirts, calendars, posters and other items.

Sean L.

<The water seems
Post by Steve
muddy
here. Sometimes advertisements with photos are included with a
product. Is that a valid RF use? What about photos on product
packing? Is that considered advertising use or does that fall into
another category since that photo is now part of a product?
It sounds as if each licenser of RF images makes up their own rules
about what uses are valid. I used to think there was a clear
distinction between RF and RM with RF meaning "anything goes" and RM
meaning "licensed for a specific use". Bottom line, if there ever
was a standardized definition for these terms, it appears that it
has gone away.
Steve Waitkevich
Post by Stockphoto Seller
Just goes to the dementia of the RF mindset. Use of RF images in
such things as books, magazines, educational CD's, etc., is use in
an
item for resale, isn't it? That's a rhetorical question of course,
the
answer being obvious to anyone but a neophyte with no knowledge of
the
business and total dolts.
Post by Stockphoto Seller
Carl May/BPS
daveinkelso
2007-01-05 01:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Okay, I'm confused. If RF is not legal in items for resale, then
are
the only valid uses editorial and advertising? The water seems
muddy
here. Sometimes advertisements with photos are included with a
product. Is that a valid RF use? What about photos on product
packing? Is that considered advertising use or does that fall into
another category since that photo is now part of a product?
It sounds as if each licenser of RF images makes up their own rules
about what uses are valid. I used to think there was a clear
distinction between RF and RM with RF meaning "anything goes" and RM
meaning "licensed for a specific use". Bottom line, if there ever
was a standardized definition for these terms, it appears that it
has gone away.
The general rule is that the product must not be dependent on the
photograph or consist of the photography. T-shirt, mug, poster,
postcard, calender, mousemat etc are all deemed to be reselling the
image (the product is merely a vehicle - the reason you buy it is for
the image). Similarly, a remarketed web template based on a photo
image is reselling the photo, not the template. Same would go for
getting loads of RF pictures and then putting them on a CD and selling
that.

A book may contain photos, a magazine may contain photos, a DVD may
use photos to illustrate a chapter, a film may have still photos, an
advert may be based entirely on a photo - but it is not there BECAUSE
of the photo. The most difficult area is in book covers. Some RF
vendors believe putting RF on a book cover is no different to selling
a poster or a calendar, which they don't allow. Others see it as no
different from including a photo inside a book.

There is no standard definition but these rules have been in place
since the first days on clip art going back to Thomas Bewick in the
1820s, and probably before that, though Bewick was the first
commercial RF image supplier. The concept that RF is new is complete
tosh, and I was using RF clip art and 'clip photography' from the day
I joined a newspaper in 1970. We were free to go into the library and
pull out any example from 10, 20, 50 years back if it had originally
been supplied by any of the major RF illustration services.

The general rules about not creating a product from RF art/photography
applied then as now, and if any confusion has arisen, it's probably
from new microstock agencies failing to understand the importance of
following industry standard terms and conditions.

David
Stockphoto Seller
2007-01-05 14:47:17 UTC
Permalink
The quote below presents an entirely arbitrary and somewhat capricious opinion. Playing with semantics rather than looking at the actual use of a photo in or on a product.

In general, one does not buy a mousepad or a mug enhanced with an image for the image alone any more than a book or magazine with images solely for their visual content. In editorial products--books, magazines, CD's, etc.--the images are every bit as integral (or not), on average, to the value of the product as for products using images as design elements to enhance sales. In fact, the visual information in photos may be irreplaceable in many editorial uses, making the product grossly inferior or useless without the images. One can still drink from a cup without a photo, but one cannot learn what an okapi looks like except from first-hand viewing or an image of some sort. Try selling a childrens book without drawn illustrations or photographs. Try selling an introductory biology textbook without micrographs and photographs.

Making a distinction between printed editorial products on paper and photos reproduced on practical items is an exercise in whimsy. It's not surprising to find such off-the-wall practices among RF sellers from top-of-the-line (oxymoron?) to micro, but only because RF is understood to be where professional stock photography practices are generally abused in the quest of naive, short-term goals or as a competitive weapon to undercut legitimate stock sources.

Carl May/BPS


daveinkelso <***@btconnect.com> wrote:
The general rule is that the product must not be dependent on the
photograph or consist of the photography. T-shirt, mug, poster,
postcard, calender, mousemat etc are all deemed to be reselling the
image (the product is merely a vehicle - the reason you buy it is for
the image). Similarly, a remarketed web template based on a photo
image is reselling the photo, not the template. Same would go for
getting loads of RF pictures and then putting them on a CD and selling
that.

A book may contain photos, a magazine may contain photos, a DVD may
use photos to illustrate a chapter, a film may have still photos, an
advert may be based entirely on a photo - but it is not there BECAUSE
of the photo. The most difficult area is in book covers. Some RF
vendors believe putting RF on a book cover is no different to selling
a poster or a calendar, which they don't allow. Others see it as no
different from including a photo inside a book.


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daveinkelso
2007-01-06 00:44:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stockphoto Seller
The quote below presents an entirely arbitrary and somewhat
capricious opinion. Playing with semantics rather than looking at the
actual use of a photo in or on a product.
Post by Stockphoto Seller
In general, one does not buy a mousepad or a mug enhanced with an
image for the image alone any more than a book or magazine with images
solely for their visual content. In editorial products--books,
magazines, CD's, etc.--the images are every bit as integral (or not),
on average, to the value of the product as for products using images
as design elements to enhance sales. In fact, the visual information
in photos may be irreplaceable in many editorial uses, making the
product grossly inferior or useless without the images. One can still
drink from a cup without a photo, but one cannot learn what an okapi
looks like except from first-hand viewing or an image of some sort.
Try selling a childrens book without drawn illustrations or
photographs. Try selling an introductory biology textbook without
micrographs and photographs.
You've got it the wrong way round Carl. A mousemat doesn't need a
photo, a mug doesn't need a photo. Therefore the photo is the main
reason for the product existing. The photos are not the main reason
for a textbook, and one single photo is never the reason for a textbook.

'Images' is the keyword. A textbook uses many images. No single image
is what the product depends on.

I think jigsaws, calendars are a grey area. You don't really buy a
jigsaw for the image, you buy it for the puzzle. But RF and L vendors
alike consider jigsaws to be mostly the image, in their value.
Calendars - well, there are 12 pix. Maybe more. You buy for the dates,
not the pix. But again, the trade generally sees the calendar as being
composed of its images, as a product.

In the past - even when I used RF material 35 years ago in newspapers
- most RF was unsuitable for any normal use. It consisted, then, of
cheesy Schafline bromides of housewives serving meals, of furniture,
living rooms, washing machines, cars, stuff like that. Just
advertising block rubbish. There was no editorial RF, partly because
editorial always used normal screening for photos, while ads used
Schafline, which has great impact and clarity but looks artificial.
There was syndicated editorial, which was not so far different. You
got a column of set type (really cheap papers could cut and paste the
proof as a bromide!) and regular photo prints, which had to go on the
clichegraph like any other repro. You paid so many hundreds a year,
and got your cookery column, gardening column, motoring piece etc
every week by syndication from an agency. No need for a real live
journo or photographer. Once you had it, you could re-use any time you
liked.

Today the problem is you can get almost ANYTHING in RF form and RF
distribution is more prominent and the permitted uses are wider, and
the price is lower. You just couldn't get the old RF stuff unless you
subscribed, and had big budgets. Event the first RF CD collections
were not cheap, per CD, only per image - and often you would need to
buy an entire CD just to get a single shot. Now you can buy single
images for cents.

David
Stockphoto Seller
2007-01-06 14:39:43 UTC
Permalink
Huh? Fluffy as pillow stuffing. It doesn't need a photo but the photo is the main reason for its existence.

Like I said, I'm not at all surprised people with the kind of thinking that takes them into RF can twist themselves into semantic moebius strips like this. Photos are just as essential (or not) to the sale whether the product is a book or mug. The point is that it is stupid to charge for reproduction of an image other than by the use, no matter what the use is. Any other approach to pricing has no more of a solid base than bubbles in spit.

Carl May/BPS

daveinkelso <***@btconnect.com> wrote:
You've got it the wrong way round Carl. A mousemat doesn't need a
photo, a mug doesn't need a photo. Therefore the photo is the main
reason for the product existing. The photos are not the main reason
for a textbook, and one single photo is never the reason for a textbook.

'Images' is the keyword. A textbook uses many images. No single image
is what the product depends on.




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Sean Locke
2007-01-06 00:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stockphoto Seller
The quote below presents an entirely arbitrary and somewhat
capricious opinion. Playing with semantics rather than looking at the
actual use of a photo in or on a product.
Post by Stockphoto Seller
In general, one does not buy a mousepad or a mug enhanced with an
image for the image alone any more than a book or magazine with images
solely for their visual content. In editorial products--books,
magazines, CD's, etc.--the images are every bit as integral (or not),
on average, to the value of the product as for products using images
as design elements to enhance sales.

Look at it this way, maybe. A tshirt, is a mug, is a calendar, is a
whatever. Any tshirt is interchangable, really, with any other. A
mouse pad is nothing but a piece of rubber.

Adding the image to it adds value and uniqueness to it and makes it
saleable from any other.

The value of a book lies in the writing. The value of a music cd is
in the content. That is what is being sold.

I know I've read before on iStock, that if someone published a coffee
table book, solely of iStock images, for their beauty and interest,
then that would be looked upon differently that just a promotional
book cover.

The idea, at least in my mind, is that the imagery is being sold to
help you build your business, not be your business.

Sean L.
David Riecks
2007-01-05 04:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
It sounds as if each licenser of RF images makes up their own rules
about what uses are valid. I used to think there was a clear
distinction between RF and RM with RF meaning "anything goes" and RM
meaning "licensed for a specific use". Bottom line, if there ever
was a standardized definition for these terms, it appears that it
has gone away.
Steve:

That's why they are called "licenses" and why you have to read the
terms and conditions in the contract.

Contrary to some opinions, the basic definitions ARE standardized, if
you know where to look.

Here are those definitions as adopted by the Picture Licensing
Universal System (PLUS) after rigorous review by a board of Creators,
Picture Archives, Designers, Advertisers, and Publishers, and over 30
professional trade organizations.

Royalty Free:
Denotes a broad or almost unlimited use of an image or group of
images by a licensee for a single licensee fee. License agreement
typically specifies some limitations (e.g., resale of the image to a
third party is usually prohibited). The terms of royalty free license
agreements vary and often include warnings or disclaimers regarding
liability in connection with model-released imagery.
http://www.useplus.com/useplus/glossary_term.asp?pggl=1&tmid=13040000

Rights Managed:
A licensing model in which the rights to a creative work are
carefully controlled by a licensor through use of exact and limiting
wording of each successive grant of usage rights.
http://www.useplus.com/useplus/glossary_term.asp?pggl=1&tmid=13030000

Does that help your understanding of the differences?

David

--
David Riecks (that's "i" before "e", but the "e" is silent)
***@riecks.com http://www.riecks.com/
Midwest/Chicago ASMP
daveinkelso
2007-01-02 02:03:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi gang,
Happy New Year!
RF images.
Would an RF license allow a business to use the image on a postcard
or T-shirt and sell it in perpetuity?
Specifically, looking through Cafepress forums I see people looking
for clip art and RF and then putting images on items for sale in
their shops.
Most RF licences specifically forbid the use to create another product
- i.e. mugs, T-shirts, mousemats etc. Alamy does. The RF image may not
be used to create a product in which it is the main content. This also
rules out postcards, posters, jigsaws etc.

Most people don't bother to read RF licences carefully.

David
Sean Locke
2007-01-02 12:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi gang,
Happy New Year!
RF images.
Would an RF license allow a business to use the image on a postcard
or T-shirt and sell it in perpetuity?
Specifically, looking through Cafepress forums I see people looking
for clip art and RF and then putting images on items for sale in
their shops.
Chuck
Most microstocks prohibit items for resale, without buying an extended
license. There was a recent thread on istock about a pet supply chain
using a vector on a dog shirt without buying a license.

Shutterpoint is the one exception I know - their license is pretty
open, which may explain the occasional sale there.

Sean L.
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