Discussion:
[STOCKPHOTO] Re: Creative Eye/MIRA deal deadline - join now and save
(too old to reply)
David Laguillo
2003-08-20 22:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Dear friends:

Your project Creative Eye/MIRA is admirable. But, we do really need to pay for include some images on a catalogue?. Most agencies don´t charge photographers with fees. Just a candid thought.

However, your cooperative project is still very interesting.


kind regards,

David Laguillo
www.davidlaguillo.com
www.agefotostock.com/age/agewebfotografos.asp?lang=ingles&key1=DLA&key2=David+Laguillo

www.rexinterstock.com


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Alfonso Gutiérrez
2003-08-23 00:56:26 UTC
Permalink
Brian,
Three of those don't even charge for scanning. AGE
is hardly unique in this area.<<
I wonder...
...and there are so many fewer catalogs today...<<
I´m not sure that this is correct. I think I said in this forum sometime ago
that in my last visit to the CEPIC meeting in Lisbon the amount of existing
catalogs on offer was suffocating. Even one or two Chinese companies where
there offering their own catalogs. Impressive ones. The only thing that has
changed nowadays is that there are no bells and whistles when an agency has
to produce a new book that is, today, quite different in all senses than it
used to be. Images are edited from the material we constantly received or
assign photographers to shoot specific subjects. All without the liturgy of
the past. We do make parties to launch catalogs though.

alfonso




----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Yarvin" <***@brianyarvin.com>
To: <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: [STOCKPHOTO] Re: Creative Eye/MIRA deal deadline - join now and
save
As far as "most" agencies not charging for fees, you could be right
when compared to AGE Fotostock. But the most you will get there is 50
percent of the sale
As far as I can tell, very few agencies are currently charging fees
and of the five agencies I currently work with - none do for anything
but scanning. Three of those don't even charge for scanning. AGE
is hardly unique in this area.
The way you put, CE membership would be best if you only made
one sale. Because your piece of that sale would be bigger. But in
fact, what counts is a steady stream of sales, and the size of the
checks you recieve at the end of the month.
Corbis, another agency you mention in your posts, also has zero
fees and generates very good and steady revenue from the images
it accepts.
The big fees charged by many agencies in the 1990's were for
catalogs, and there are so many fewer catalogs today that I just
don't come across them anymore.
Brian Yarvin
Photography from Edison, NJ
http://www.brianyarvin.com
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Brian Yarvin
2003-08-23 01:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alfonso Gutiérrez
I´m not sure that this is correct. I think I said in this forum
sometime ago that in my last visit to the CEPIC meeting in Lisbon the
amount of existing catalogs on offer was suffocating.
Alfonso:

Glad to see you back!

I was basing my comments on some recent discussions with
American editorial photo buyers it almost goes without say that
Europe is a different (and very interesting) story.

You can be sure that anybody who watches Chinese media will be
completely unsurprised by you catalog comments. The quality and
number of Chinese language publications available in New Jersey
is astounding and roughly mirroring the improvements in their
Cinema. I remember the days when "Chinese Movie" meant a
somber costume drama about peasants and their struggle, but
when I rented one last week, it was a very funny urban romantic
comedy.


Brian Yarvin
Photography from Edison, NJ
http://www.brianyarvin.com



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Alfonso Gutiérrez
2003-08-23 23:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Brian,

I´m astonished myself of the quality of Chinese catalogs and publications
that I have seen in Beijing and is really interesting to see the real
progress they are making in shooting situations and lifestyle. The only
problem is that the models are real Chinese from China and are hard to sell
in out of Chine and influenced areas.
Post by Alfonso Gutiérrez
Post by Brian Yarvin
I was basing my comments on some recent discussions with
American editorial photo buyers it almost goes without say that
Europe is a different (and very interesting) story.<<

You are right in what you say: our American editorial clients are certainly
ignoring catalogs, but our last distributed in the States, Access, has had a
highly surprising impact within the Advertising field and is becoming one of
those we have distributed with the best response. Catalogs still have a
foreseeable life.

alfonso


----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Yarvin" <***@brianyarvin.com>
To: <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 3:16 AM
Subject: Re: [STOCKPHOTO] Re: Creative Eye/MIRA deal deadline - join now and
save
Post by Alfonso Gutiérrez
I´m not sure that this is correct. I think I said in this forum
sometime ago that in my last visit to the CEPIC meeting in Lisbon the
amount of existing catalogs on offer was suffocating.
Alfonso:

Glad to see you back!

I was basing my comments on some recent discussions with
American editorial photo buyers it almost goes without say that
Europe is a different (and very interesting) story.

You can be sure that anybody who watches Chinese media will be
completely unsurprised by you catalog comments. The quality and
number of Chinese language publications available in New Jersey
is astounding and roughly mirroring the improvements in their
Cinema. I remember the days when "Chinese Movie" meant a
somber costume drama about peasants and their struggle, but
when I rented one last week, it was a very funny urban romantic
comedy.


Brian Yarvin
Photography from Edison, NJ
http://www.brianyarvin.com



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Axel Hess
2003-08-23 06:54:38 UTC
Permalink
Brian an all,

I may be a poor businessman, but I fail to see Mira's cost per image as a
real charge - after all, it goes into a company I do partly own myself,
when I am a contributor. It is simply put an investment into my own business
to develop it - and I like this thought much more than image exclusive
agencies getting a higher percentage. How much are 4$ compared to the 10% or
20% of royalties which others will charge you more?

We all will have our profit from Mira if it is successful, even those who
choose not to join!

Regards, Axel
--
***@axelhess.de
http://www.axelhess.de



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Rana El Nemr
2003-08-24 13:04:37 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
I've been approached by an agency called 'More than Pictures' or MTP Network. In its site http://www.morethanpictures.com/ it says that it's a stock and assignment agency based in Canada. As I am based far away from that area & relatively new in the field I would appreciate it very much if anyone who knows any info about the agency, good or bad, to please tell me about it.

Thank you very much.
Photographer
Rana El Nemr


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John Greim
2003-08-25 03:32:59 UTC
Permalink
"Cost per image" is a real charge whether you fail to see it or not. Money
that you advance or it is deducted from your income is a real charge.
A lower percentage on sales would therefore constitute a real cost. Just
because you never see the money does not mean that it is not a real cost.
after all, it goes into a company I do partly own myself, when I am a
contributor. <
When you invest on shares from an Electricity company, for example, you
partly own it. Together with millions of others. The more others own a part
of it, the smaller becomes your participation and therefore your possible
control over the money you invest.
Another forced and weak analogy. When you invest in an electric company
you do it as a pure investment not because you make electricity. When
you purchase a share of stock in Creative Eye you own a piece of, and
become a participant in building a company that is also distribution
channel for your own work. The rest of the owners are also photographers
with similar goals. Each one of them can own one and only one share
which can not be sold to any third party.

Therefore, no owner can accumulate a greater share of control than any
other. This equal ownership in a company in which all owners have a
mutual interest, protects the company from being bought once it becomes
either too threatening or too attractive to a competitor. The MORE
quality owners there are the stronger the company becomes and the more
each individual owner stands to benefit.
It is simply put an investment into my own business to develop it...<<
Your "own business" is something different than to be "part" of a business.
Your "own" business is semantically a business that is only yours and be
"part" of a business means that you share the property with others that
could be many others.
So you "own" AGE, right ? Which semantically speaking means "only
yours". As in, Alfonso owns AGE and has total control as opposed to the
photographers who contribute to AGE who own and control nothing
regarding the company. Your semantic gymnastics illustrate Axel's
point wonderfully.
While you can vote, the possibilities that your vote
will eventually change something in the direction you wish are slim.
Since photographers have NO vote at AGE it would be reasonable to assume
that the chances of them changing something in the direction they wish
would be considerably slimmer there, correct?

Creative Eye member/owners are currently in the midst of an election
that will add four new seats to the Board of Directors. All of the
candidates are also owners and photographers with a vested interest in
the well being of Creative Eye and in the health of this industry from a
"photographers perspective".

The candidates are not just unknown names on a proxy ballot sent to
shareholders, they are names who the owners have come to know through
the Creative Eye members forum and through their service to the industry
at large. David Riecks, a frequent contributor here is one of those
candidates. James Cook and Peter Bennett are current CE Board members
that are also well known to this forum. I would suggest that the CE
member vote does indeed stand for something powerful and important. The
ability to elect a Board from amongst your colleagues, who will then be
charged with protecting and promoting the concerns of the shareholders
as well as those of the company.....two sides of the same coin really.
Of
course you can always sell your shares of the Electricity company, but if
you have "invested" money that has not been reflected as acquisition of
shares, the moment you live the company you loose your investment. Maybe you
can recover the scans though.
The big, huge,.... enormous point you are conveniently missing here is
that Creative Eye, the company the photographers have invested in and
built, can not BE SOLD. This is the real investment danger that we have
come to know all too well from first hand experience. You spend years
investing images in an agency, even a "photographer friendly" one, and
then it gets sold. All the more likely if that agency requires an image
exclusive. Apart from Mira all the other options including AGE, can be
sold without photographer consultation or a share in the profit. I'm not
suggesting that all agencies are therefore bad, only that this
significant investment risk does not exist with Creative Eye.
and I like this thought much more than image exclusive agencies getting a
higher percentage.<<
You may like this thought, however what is undeniable is with "image
exclusive agencies" you don't risk your cash savings that can be producing
money in another place, you risk only the images you wish to leave with them
and just for a number of years, normally three. But no cash needs to be
risked.
Of course it does. By far the biggest cash expense of getting a highly
marketable image into an agency is the time and money it costs to
produce it. By comparison a $4 processing fee represents pocket change.
To commit that image exclusively and deep freeze all similars means that
the image needs to sell extremely well at that agency or your upfront
cash investment and time, becomes a loss.

John Greim
Creative Eye Chairman

www.creativeeyecoop.com
www.mira.com


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John Greim
2003-08-25 16:55:44 UTC
Permalink
John
Can not a majority of owner/shareholders vote to sell should a potentially
lucrative offer be
made at some point or are there provisions in place to exclude this option?
Mark Tomalty
Hi Mark,

Yes, this would be the one means by which Mira could be sold, if 51% or
more of the shareholders voted to sell. In which case all of the
shareholders would divide the profits.

Even though this is possible it is highly unlikely. The only scenario
that I can see this happening under is if Mira grew to be a serious
threat to one of the mega agencies and they made a lucrative offer just
for the sake of putting Mira out of business. In order to be a threat it
obviously implies that Mira would be doing very well and there would be
no incentive for the owners to sell unless the selling price represented
a huge premium that was attractive even when divided by the number of
shareholders.

It is unlikely that a potential buyer would be interested in buying Mira
with the intention of integrating it into their existing business. The
buyer risk would be too great because the images represented by Mira are
not locked up in a long term exclusive contract. The Mira contract can
be nullified with 30 days written notice. So unless the buyer was
willing to adopt the terms and the percentage split of the Mira contract
they would risk their investment (images and photographers) walking out
the door. Who would want to pay a premium with that sort of risk involved?

John



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Bob Croxford
2003-08-28 16:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Greim
So unless the buyer was
willing to adopt the terms and the percentage split of the Mira contract
they would risk their investment (images and photographers) walking out
the door. Who would want to pay a premium with that sort of risk involved?
John
Dear John

I'll play devil's advocate for you again. Isn't one of the big problems
with the stock photo business, as SAA and CE see it, that photographers
did not pick up their pictures and walk out the door when Getty bought
Tony Stone? Getty haven't been very willing to adopt the terms and
percentage split that was in the Tony Stone contract and still there
are photographers submitting to Getty.

What would solve MIRA's problems now is if every photographer with
Getty lifted their images and took them to MIRA. However, as you know,
Getty are shooting more and more 100% owned material to prevent that
affecting them.

Bob


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James Cook
2003-08-28 18:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Croxford
What would solve MIRA's problems now is if every photographer with
Getty lifted their images and took them to MIRA. However, as you know,
Getty are shooting more and more 100% owned material to prevent that
affecting them.
Not only would it solve MIRA's problem, it would solve photographers' problems.

If the better stock shooters were to cut off the supply to Corbis and
Getty, are they really likely to be able to produce equal quality
using the people they can pay to shoot for them? Although they might
find a few short-sighted photographers with talent, my expectation is
that the majority will be less developed, less talented photographers.

Ultimately, the creators of the images have a complete grasp on the
key to the market. As long as we continue to give up the control
we'll be exploited. Until we, as a whole, recognize that we own and
control more material than they can ever hope to acquire, we're their
slaves.

When enough of us choose to turn the pipeline in another direction,
we will have the bigger, better collection of images. The buyers who
are still concerned about quality of the images will go where the
images are. We really can control this!

Let Corbis and Getty take the low end. We can't compete with them on
price and quantity. They have the ability to always out produce us in
quantity and can underprice us every time. We do have the POTENTIAL
of substantially beating them on quality.

It's in OUR hands.
--
James Cook
***@HindSightLtd.com

HindSight Ltd.
Software for Creative Professionals
http://HSLtd.us

Director of MIRA - The stock agency of Creative Eye
http://mira.com

Creator of Traditional Subjects
http://traditionalsubjects.com

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Stockphoto Seller
2003-08-28 19:47:36 UTC
Permalink
Yikes! Cook dares to enter "quality" into the discussion. Quality is so 1980's. The entire RF market, into which so many photographers have been sucked by short-term thinking, depends on quality being a more minor factor than availability and price--on "adequate" being the operative word in decisions rather than "best." Much of RF promotion (in advertising and on website) and justification (by RF advocates) involves subtle messages that direct attention away from or change the height of the bar for quality.

Enter the big two and their effort to move the entire stock world online. One of the first things that must give way in such a world is quality. Photos simply cannot be judged for nuance and fine detail at 72 ppi on a monitor with a light regime far different from how the photo will be viewed if it is ultimately reproduced any place else except a monitor. And then make the image (file) small enough in the online database so it can't be stolen for anything but the most banal low-end uses, and much of what quality can be viewed on the screen is lost. So, as with RF, photo users must be educated or re-educated to deal with much lower (on-screen) quality in their decision-making processes. The number of photo researchers, photo editors, AD's, and so on who now start their searches for images by asking for small JPEGs shows the success of this reorientation program--and I could go on and on listing other indications of widespread mediocritization following a glassy-eyed, unquestioning
shift to online digital methods. Here the point is that once lower quality standards become the norm, then better photographers have lost important bargaining chips for dealing with agencies or clients.The lesser contract photographers providing the big agencies with images they can own in their entirety can do just fine in cranking out now-salable stuff.

If MIRA or any other outfit is truly setting out to compete with quality as one of its selling points, it will have to sell an entry (or return) to higher standards alongside selling individual images. I have no idea if this can be done with a general stock collection in these times.

Carl May/BPS

James Cook <***@HINDSIGHTLTD.COM> wrote:
If the better stock shooters were to cut off the supply to Corbis and
Getty, are they really likely to be able to produce equal quality
using the people they can pay to shoot for them? Although they might
find a few short-sighted photographers with talent, my expectation is
that the majority will be less developed, less talented photographers.

When enough of us choose to turn the pipeline in another direction,
we will have the bigger, better collection of images. The buyers who
are still concerned about quality of the images will go where the
images are. We really can control this!

Let Corbis and Getty take the low end. We can't compete with them on
price and quantity. They have the ability to always out produce us in
quantity and can underprice us every time. We do have the POTENTIAL
of substantially beating them on quality.



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